Duplicate Poker

Does anyone else here think this is biggest joke in poker?

i'm pretty sure i'd have to award the biggest joke in poker trophy to the UIGEA....but duplicates gotta be running a really tight 2nd. haven't tried duplicate my self and don't intend to for multiple reasons. one is becase poker already confuses me enough without having to add all kinds of other complicatd extras to the game. my biggest concern has got to be that this place seems like a colluders heaven. im not even a professional cheater and this one crossed my mind after reading duplicate poker "rules." Hm.... iknow what everyone in seat 4 has, eh? neat. And if my best friend played then we'd both know what everyone in seats 4 and 6 are holding. Throw in a couple more pals and suddenly between us all we know what just about everyone in the tourney is holding. yeah ....that seems fair let me go find my credit card right now.

debel ... could you elaborate about 'duplicate poker' for those of us donks who aren't familiar?

dijwaila wrote:debel ... could you elaborate about 'duplicate poker' for those of us donks who aren't familiar?

Ready for this?

Here are the Duplicate Poker Game Rules, as originally published on the DuplicatePoker.com website:

"Duplicate Poker Game Rules

General Overview
Duplicate Poker involves play of pot limit and no limit Texas hold'em under the general rules governing that game, except each deal is duplicated at the table in play, enabling players at other tables to play the same hands under the same conditions. Determining winners by comparing the results achieved by the players playing identical hands eliminates the luck of the draw element normally associated with poker so that skill is what determines who wins, not whether you got good cards or bad cards. Every hand can win if it is well played."

Introduction
To view an interactive tutorial about the Duplicate Poker Game, click here.

The main characteristics of duplicate poker that set it apart from regular pot limit and no limit Texas hold’em games are as follows:

1) There are always two or more tables of players, with the same number of players seated at each table.
2) An identically ordered deck of cards is used at each table for each deal, so that players in the same seat position at each table receive the same hole cards, and the board cards are the same at each table.
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3) Every player begins each deal with the ability to bet the same number of playing chips, regardless of how he or she may have done in any previous deal. This is achieved using a capped betting system which allows each player to bet only the pre-determined maximum number of chips on each hand played.
4) The player's score for each deal is based on the net number of chips he or she has at the end of that deal as compared with the number of chips the player had at the start of that deal.
5) The player's score for a session (a set series of deals) is whatever the net plus or minus result is for that player on all of the deals played in that session.
6) A player's outcome for a session is determined by that player's ranking compared to each of the other players in his or her same seat position.

Prizes are awarded based on buy-in amounts paid by the respective players and the number of players entering an event. In addition to the buy-in amount, each event will have a specified charge (service fee) paid to Duplicate Poker for hosting the game. To balance the number of players at the tables when needed, Duplicate Poker may fill an empty seat with an absent player. That is, the only actions taken by a "player" in that seat will be to post blinds and check or fold in turn. "Absent players" will be eliminated at the end of a session.

The determination of which players receive prizes from the pool consisting of the entry fees, and how much is awarded to those winners varies based on which of the four variations of duplicate poker contests is being played.
We currently offer these types of Duplicate Poker contests:

Tournaments Sit & Go's Ring Games
-Regular Tourneys. -Short Tourneys. -Cash Games
-Short Tourneys. -Round Robin Tourneys. -Quick Play

A description of these games and their structure and prizes are detailed under the appropriate section of these rules.

Capped Betting Overview
In order to ensure that each person playing identical hands has the exact same betting options available to them, Duplicate Poker uses a capped betting format for all pot limit and no limit games offered.

Each player is allowed to bet up to a maximum of 1000 chips in each hand. Once reaching the 1000 chip maximum, that player is considered all-in for the duration of the hand.

In order for a player to keep track of his and his opponents’ available chips, a graphic at each table shows how many of the 1000 chips are still available for a player to bet each hand, as well as the current difference between the 1000 chip cap and the total amount bet by the last bettor.

In all Duplicate Poker contests, players start each session with 1000 chips multiplied by the number of deals in a set. For example: if there are 9 deals in a given set of hands each player begins with 9000 chips (9 hands x 1000 chips per hand).

The number of chips won or lost by a player on each deal will be determined and added to their chip count for the set. However, on the next deal, there still is a 1000 chip maximum cap.

Glossary of Terms
The following are some of the terms used regularly in Duplicate Poker’s rules and games.

Blind Level: Blinds will be increased in predetermined amounts at the completion of one or more rounds of play.

Blinds: The initial forced blind bets made by the player to the immediate left of the dealer button (the "small blind"), and by the player two to the left of the dealer button (the "big blind"). Example: the blinds may be T10/T20, where "T" represents an amount of chips, the small blind posting 10 chips and the big blind posting 20 chips.

Carryover: In events that involve more than one session, players advancing to the next session may be awarded a pre-determined number of carryover chips based on their relative ranking at the end of the immediately previous session. (The actual score of the player does not determine the amount of the carryover. Rather the amount of carryover earned is based on the player's relative rank for his or her seat position.) A player's carryover chips are added to the starting stack of that player at the beginning of the next session.
Deal: The play of each deck or hand.

Final Session Round Robin: In multi-session events, the final 4 or 6 players will play a pre-determined number of deals in mini-matches against each of the other finalists. For six-player mini-matches a player will be awarded 2 points for each win, 1 point for second place and 0 points for third place. In four-player mini-matches, 1 point is awarded to the winner of each match and none to the loser. Prizes are awarded on the basis of point totals from the five mini-matches. A tie will be broken by awarding the higher place to the player that won more points in the comparison between these two players. The second tie breaker will be applied when these two players have the same number of points. In this case the winner will be the player that won more comparisons in the Round Robin match. In the case of 3 players with the same score, a check is done if the players played in the same position. If yes – a check is done of who won on the match between these 3 players. If not – a check is done to find out which player out of these three won more comparisons. If still there is a tie, a tie is declared.

Section: In order to speed up play, Duplicate Poker may divide the initial play in tournaments into sections where all tables and the players at those tables that are simultaneously playing the same deals, while tables and players in other sections will simultaneously be playing a different set of deals.

Session: A period of play consisting of a pre-determined number of deals, at the end of which play stops and results are compared. At the end of a session in multi-session events, players may be eliminated or advanced to the next session based on their ranking relative to others in the same seat position. (Sometimes also referred as a Set of deals)

Starting Stack: The quantity of chips assigned to each player at the start of each session.

Tiebreaker System: If there is a tie in the number of total chips at the end of a given session, the tie will be broken in the following manner to determine who advances to the next session in multi-session events. The first tiebreaker method is a comparison of the respective total chips accumulated during the session before adding any carryover chips. If there is still a tie, the second tiebreaker method is a score comparison at the end of the previous blind level, then the blind level before that, et cetera. If the tie cannot be broken by these methods, the tie will be broken by a simple draw. The tiebreaker system is only used to determine who advances to the next session. Except in the case of round robin play, a tie for prize money is not broken. Rather, the prize money for the tied places is split proportionally among the tied players.



Tournaments
We currently offer two types of tournaments:

* Regular Tournaments
* Short Tournaments


Both formats are played using the cap betting system described in the section Capped Betting Overview.

Each tournament has a specific buy-in amount, the total of which goes to the prize pool. In addition, Duplicate Poker charges a service fee for running the tournament. For example a $10+1 tournament means $10 is the buy-in for the tournament and $1 is the service fee.


Regular Tournament Overview
Duplicate Poker regular tournaments (also called long tournaments) are pre-scheduled poker contests of longer duration that are pot limit Texas hold'em until the semi-final and final rounds. In those sessions, play switches to no-limit Texas hold'em. Regular tournaments may involve any number of players and tables and are played in multiple sessions with a final session round robin of mini-matches to determine the winners. Prize money is awarded to two or more players, depending on the number of entrants. The total time involved in a tournament will vary based on the number of players and tables involved, but generally will last one or more hours.

In order to speed up play, each session of a tournament is played in one or more sections with up to 30 players each. Each section will play a unique and different set of deals than other sections. Deals in each section will begin as soon as the previous deal is completed at all tables in play in that section. Sessions will take from approximately 10 to 25 minutes, depending on the number of players in the sections.
Play will be capped pot limit Texas hold'em for all sessions up to the final round robin and then will be capped no-limit Texas hold'em. Capped play means that there is a 1,000 chip maximum amount that each player can bet for each hand they play. Once the 1,000 chip maximum is reached, there will be no further betting on hand. A graphic at each table will show how many of the 1,000 chips are still available to be bet, as well as the difference between the cap and the total amount bet by the last bettor.

At the end of a given set of deals, the players in that section who advance are combined into one or more sections in the next session until the players in the final session round robin are determined. No players are eliminated at the end of the first session of a tournament. Starting with the second session, varying numbers of players (which always includes any empty seats with which that session was started) in a section are eliminated at the end of the session. The remaining players are then combined into new sections.

This process of elimination and combination of players into new sections is repeated until the round robin finalists are determined, who then compete in a final session round robin in which they play a series of two-handed mini-matches, one against each other finalist. In a six-player mini-match, for example, there will be three two-handed tables in play, and the mini-match winner (the player with the highest total chip count) will receive 2 points, the runner up 1 point and the last place finisher 0 points in each of the five mini-matches. Thus, while all finalists are "in the money", there is a single winner. If, after applying the Tiebreaker System, there is an unbroken tie for a given finishing place, any money at stake is split equally among those tying. In tournaments where prizes other than cash is at stake, we reserve the right to determine the fair cash value of the prize and award that amount instead of the non-cash prize offered.

Players advancing to subsequent sessions until the final session round robin may be awarded carryover chips, which are added to their total chips in the next session. Last place at each seat position will not receive any carryover chips. The next highest place at that seat position in a given session will receive the number of chips shown in the table below. Each successively higher place in that seat position will receive an additional amount equal to the carryover per place shown.

Example: assume that we are determining the carryover from the 3rd to the 4th Session and that there are five players in each seat position. The last, or fifth place scoring player in a given seat position will receive no carryover chips, the fourth lowest scorer in that seat position will receive 800 carryover chips, the third 1,600 carryover chips, the second 2,400 carryover chips and the highest scorer will receive 3,200 carryover chips. These carryovers will be added to the total chip stack of that player at the start of the next session. Carryover chips do not apply to any session other than the immediate next session after they are earned. No carryover chips will be awarded for use in the final session round robin.


There is only one way in which you are eliminated from a tournament: Failing to make the cut when we compare your total chip count against the other players in your same seat number at the end of a Session.
In the second and later sessions approximately half the field is eliminated until the start of the final round robin matches. Note: In elimination sessions, generally you will not be able to see your opponents’ total chips or seat position ranking. This encourages players to play their own hands for maximum value and not make strategy decisions based on opponents’ total chip amounts.

Regular Tournament Structure & Prizes
The following chart sets forth the number of tables, player counts and deals played for varying section sizes. In tournament contests players start each session with 1,000 chips times the number of deals in a session. For example in a 12-player section, there are 9 deals and therefore each player begins with 9 x 1000 = 9,000 chips. Note: No sections will be formed with either five or seven players.

Empty seats will be treated as if filled with an absent player who posts blinds and checks or folds in turn..."

Detailed tables and photos and other details have been removed from this post. The complete posting of Duplicate Poker General Rules with detailed tables and photos and other details included can be found on the DuplicatePoker.com website.

DizzyDog wrote:i'm pretty sure i'd have to award the biggest joke in poker trophy to the UIGEA....

I've got to agree with that much, Dizzy.

What is UIGEA?

unlawful internet gambling enforcement act.

anybody have a good link to the actual act or its basics, and another to a parody/joke site for it?

Huh.

Maybe I should have been born blonde but what are you looking for? A link to what?

as i understand the situation in the u.s., many politicians have a poor (and rather unaware) opinion of poker and try to restrict access both live and online, while supporting truly detrimental causes.

i don't know the specifics of the u.i.g.e.a., but would like to know the basics without having to read through it (as i'm sort of falling asleep anyway). hence, the request for the first link.
i do have an idea of how it will read and if somebody out there knows of an critical article of the u.i.g.e.a. which is composed with humor, such seemed a good addition for people who may be reading these threads later. essentially ... to help inform and entertain.

have to get back to work ... customers.

That works very well. It eliminates the luck factor almost completely, leaving something close to pure skill. Luck continues to be an issue in bidding certain hands which may yield more easily to one bidding system or another, in the play of the cards when one has a need to finesse one side or the other with no indication of which is more likely to be holding the high card, and frequently when the suit distributions are unusual. In the latter case, it can be the less skilled player who wins that board.

On the other hand, duplicate bridge lacks the continuity of rubber bridge and isn't especially profitable except at the higher levels. Rubber bridge is a great gambling game if one has a good partner and can find two others to play. Back in the day, I developed a bidding system especially for rubber bridge (though I didn't realize it until we tried to apply it to duplicate, after which we fell back to the Italian System with good success). Initially intended to provide partners with a better understanding of their more than opening strength hands with the idea of hitting more games, it actually resulted in higher part scores and the occasional stolen contract when strong hand was paired with weak. The former didn't make a difference in duplicate (but made it significantly easier to score games in rubber). The latter occasionally worked well in both games.

Remembering those days recently, I myself considered the idea of duplicate poker but found it unworkable. To begin with it would have to be played in teams like duplicate bridge is (the issue of collusion brought up by DizzyDog). In duplicate bridge we have north/south and east/west teams. The north/south players play north or south at every table in turn. The east/west players do the same for the east and west table positions. In championship play a full team consists of both a north/south and an east/west team. In this situation there is no rationale for collusion across tables. I win or lose with my team. Helping others hurts me.

To do the same in duplicate poker you'd need as many team members as there are table positions, as many tables as positions, and as many teams. So, a five person table would require five five-member teams playing at five tables. A member of each team sits in on every hand at each of the five tables and the results are scored on a hand-by-hand basis. This could, kinda-sorta, work in a highly structured tournament environment where it was literally impossible to share information with your team members. Online, forget it.

However, the result wouldn't be poker. Duplicate bridge is still bridge because the complexity and duration of bidding and playing a hand is significant. Making each hand self-contained takes away the part score element of rubber bridge, but little more. Bridge works easily as a series of discrete, unrelated hands, especially since duplicate captures the vulnerability element, albeit artificially. An individual hand in poker is much less significant however (or much more, depending on the hand) and really not the stuff of some sort of ideal play as a discrete entity. Stack size in NL and PL are hugely important as is the orbiting of the button and what players did on previous hands. While poker consists of a series of discrete hands just as bridge does, the continuity of hands is more significant than their individuality. Poker is more like a river as each hand contributes to the ebb and flow of stacks, the orbit of the button, and the recurrence of confrontations between the same players and different ones.