short stack and folding

i,ve been reading alot lately,and i,m reading this book on shot stack play,and it says with 2 big raises in front of you if you have a-k or less fold...i didnt think it was right,they say let them fight it out and pick your fight..what do you guys think?

My thought is that things would depend on how small your small stack is. I know you're talking theoretically as opposed to talking about an actual hand but I would also factor in how many blinds I have left as well as how these two players in question have been playing (loose? tight? how do they play post-flop?). Of course, if you're close being blinded out, you may not have much of a choice but to shove with an AQ or AJ or 88.

Anyway, the book that you're reading makes a good point. Although there's no perfect formula for when to fold/play, I tend to agree. So for example, a player in early position raises and another player then reraises. Often time these preflop reraises suggests that one of these players has a premium hand like KK, AA, or AK so the suggestion of playing AK or better is certainly understandable. If you play AQ or AJ in this situation, you'll be in big trouble. Against AA, your AQ or AJ will be dominated (about 7-8% chance that you'll win). Against KK, this player has a pocket pair that beats one of your cards (Q or J) meaning that pairing your Q or J doesn't do anything unless you hit trips; so in this case, you'll be relying on your A to win.

I would assume the book you're reading would cover this, but basically, the situation changes depending on the number of players involved in the hand. Playing A10 from middle position when no one else has entered the pot is very different from when two players have raised or have joined the pot.

As I've said, there's no perfect formula, but this can be a good way to guide/inform your decision making process. I will say that the scenario described may not be the situation at all though, depending on the stakes you play, quality of the competition, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

yes the book covers alot of info i left out,but in essence what i was seeking a response to was the question of is it better to let one two of them fight it out,possibly eliminating a player,or would you go with the concept of improving your hand when opportunity knocks...when in the short stack position i play very few hands,so i would find it tough to lay down a good one,throw in the fact that if blinds were high like the final 20 of a tounament..i,m not sure i could...but lately my personal stragedy hasnt served me well hence the book hope i was clearer,i type with one finger and post take me a bit..i get excited and my keyboard looks n sounds like its getting attacked by a rabid wood pecker

yes the book covers alot of info i left out,but in essence what i was
seeking a response to was the question of is it better to let one two
of them fight it out,possibly eliminating a player,or would you go with
the concept of improving your hand when opportunity knocks...when in
the short stack position i play very few hands,so i would find it tough
to lay down a good one,throw in the fact that if blinds were high like
the final 20 of a tounament..i,m not sure i could...but lately my
personal stragedy hasnt served me well hence the book

I see - so I didn't quite answer your question then! My playing style in tourneys recently is playing fairly tight (I'd like to think tight-aggressive), so keeping that in mind, here are additional thoughts.

Personally, recalling my recent ITM finishes, letting two players go at it has more often than not worked in my favor, so I would agree with the book. As a short stack, you want to maximize the chances of making the best play and doubling up/increasing your stack; playing a drawing hand can get you into trouble because you may feel that you're now pot committed and decide to shove. I try not to worry about another player increasing his/her stack size by knocking another opponent out because if you're short stack, you need to double up anyway and need to make the best preflop decision that will allow you to make it to the final table and then win it all.

Here's my recent personal experience that leads me to say this. Admittedly, I have been playing a bit too tight since I've often found myself on the bubble or very close to it (e.g., FullTilt tourney with 27 paid, I'm 26, 27, 28th). When I make ITM, I notice that many players experience some relief and start playing too loosely as if to make up for the tight play. I've found that folding hands like KQ, KJ, ace rag has allowed me to keep my chips until I find the right situation to move in. As a short stack, I'm usually looking to shove rather than call and I'd much rather be the one shoving (hopefully I'll also be the first one entering the pot) than the person making a call and moving all in. Incidentally, of the four recent tourneys that I was on the bubble, I finished 3rd, 10th, 10th, and 32nd (<= this one really bugs me whenever I think about it!). Incidentally, the time that I finished 3rd, I was the short stack (10BB or less) when the final table began.

I hope I answered your question more than the first time! Of course, take my comments with a grain of salt.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

and again a great response.i,ll definately take it to my game...i can see the stragedy,but until this discussion it was hard to push me off ak...i,m going to take it more carefully because as of late...my game has not measured up.ty

Looks like it's just the two of us exchanging thoughts but I'd be interested to hear other people's input.

One thing about your last post that caught my attention - folding AK is something that's tough for anyone to do and hopefully, I didn't give you the impression that you should fold it. There are circumstances where you might be better off folding but I can't recall the last time I folded AK short stacked (AQ, maybe once or twice folded, AJ and below I've thrown away). Best of luck and keep us updated on how things are!

third man in. i will always join the 3 way pot with AK as a shortstack, because most likely deep in the tourny there are going to be players salivating over the increasing blinds in this situation. i also feel if you think one of them is going to raise after the flop you might only be heads up with the third players chips up for grabs. as you both know there is only two hands that have you in bad shape preflop, there is a good chance that the AK might have one of the players drawing to three outs if holding an A or K. (flushes and straights aside) i don't know for sure if i'm correct , but i just can't see any of the pros laying it down in a tourny when short. cash game might be a different story.

short stack is a good fold ak is a suckers bet with two over you unless your pot comitted then your better off watching what they do and how they act to get them later one player is always easier to beat then two

i guess short stacked two raises in front of u i would agree with the fold odds say one or both has at least a king or an ace so dont leave many outs left probably in that spot u be better with middle pair to go allin lots of variences are u close to itm then u fold and let them take each other out .