Poker: Is it Gambling or a sport?

I find myself annoyed or irratated when people refer to poker (hold'em) as gambling in the same sense as blackjack, slot machines or other games of chance found in a casino. So much in fact any conversation regarding this topic turns into a long drug out battle. I could spend hours stating my claim...I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.

when addressing roulette, slot machine, dice games or blackjack (to a lesser extent) for exemple, there is more luck involved than anything else. the odds are always against you to win.

this is not necessarily so with poker ... though for most players the case can be made that it is. theoretically however, the situations in poker where you are not favored to win can be minimized to a greater extent than any other game cited above.

therefor, those who understand the statistical aspects of poker, are able to recognize behavioral patterns/actions which indicate the strength of their hand and then psychologically manipulate opponents into making mistakes will be in the best position for success.

however ... not all of these abilities are necessary to win. chance still plays a role in whatever format you engage with ... the most adept players do not always win.
to conclude ... any endeavor in which chance cannot be negated is a gamble.

You are right, there's definately luck involved in the game. And even the world leaders in poker don't win every game. But neither does the best sports teams, or olympic athletes. Luck is involved in every aspect of life.

Ironically, I have noticed that the biggest tournament wins I have had were tournaments that I had to struggle to surfive for the majority of it. Several of them I couldn't get above the number of starting chips until we got close to the money. To me, I outplayed luck in those games. The tournies I start off real lucky I usually finish before the money because I let the luck effect my game play.

When it comes to a hand or the off chance that luck superseeds skill in a tourny, it is very possible for an unskilled player to triumph. But hell, even the Twins won a couple of World Series.

I better stop right here, this could easily get very lengthy.

Debel wrote: ... I outplayed luck in those games. The tournies I start off real lucky I usually finish before the money because I let the luck effect my game play.

When it comes to a hand or the off chance that luck superseeds skill in a tourny, it is very possible for an unskilled player to triumph. But hell, even the Twins won a couple of World Series.

it is not possible to outplay luck (unless you fixed the game) ... only to minimize the situations where you are not favored to win. as i did not witness your games, i can only state that this seems to be what you have done when receiving poor starting hands or flops during the early/middle stages of tournaments, and did not do when drawing well in the same situation.

using baseball as the sports example ... each team/side use the same equipment and have access to the same quality equipment. there is also less concealed information, you know who is on the field, who could be substituted and when they are.
when the 'twins' won, it was because they outplayed opponents ... not because the other team only had wiffle-bats or an unknown element was suddenly entered into the game, like an eagle flying in to carry a fly ball over the wall for a game winning home run.

that said, chance still plays a role in baseball ... for which injuries are the best example. also, ability has a strong influence regardless of the endeavor ... the difference with poker is the greater extent of elements to the game, with which no player has influence. baseball, or any 'sport' for that matter is a form of gambling, but the players have greater influence to the outcome.

Debel wrote: Luck is involved in every aspect of life.

Debel wrote:You are right, there's definately luck involved in the game. And even the world leaders in poker don't win every game. But neither does the best sports teams, or olympic athletes. Luck is involved in every aspect of life.

Ironically, I have noticed that the biggest tournament wins I have had were tournaments that I had to struggle to surfive for the majority of it. Several of them I couldn't get above the number of starting chips until we got close to the money. To me, I outplayed luck in those games. The tournies I start off real lucky I usually finish before the money because I let the luck effect my game play.

When it comes to a hand or the off chance that luck superseeds skill in a tourny, it is very possible for an unskilled player to triumph. But hell, even the Twins won a couple of World Series.

I better stop right here, this could easily get very lengthy.

good point about overplaying your luck, I seem to do bet when I struggle at the beginning of tourney!

I was really hoping this would generate more discussion than this. I am starting to believe that there are only a couple of us on this site.

As far as 'outplaying bad luck'...it certainly is possible. The definition of outplay is to excel or defeat in a game. I both excelled beyond and defeated bad luck.

And the definition of 'sport' pulled from the wikipedia is:

Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

The definition of game of chance pulled from the wikipedia is:

A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomizing device, and upon which contestants frequently wager money.

Poker is both gambling and sport combined. It has a lot to do with the type of player you are TAG,LaG, TAP, or LaP. Most skilled players in tournament play vary their style to keep villians from reading them. Overall play is still TAG. These players in my opinion use more skill than relying on luck. The opposite can be said about Loose players, the allin crowd, playing every hand . They rely heavily on luck. No matter style of play a certain amount of skill is needed. Poker is in my opinion a SPORT. If you play like a maniac not saying they cant win you are gambling. Now head to head the loose style is the game and your ability to read villian and bluff is needed GAMBLING.
I dont think Black Jack should be included in gambling status there is skill involved in that game as well much less of course but not pure luck such as slots.

I was really impressed with your reply, at least until the end. Blackjack is gambling. You are playing against the house.

Do you know I recently read somewhere than poker has become the number one favorite past time activity in america. The article read that it even exceeds sex because it lasts longer.

Debel wrote:Do you know I recently read somewhere than poker has become the number one favorite past time activity in america. The article read that it even exceeds sex because it lasts longer.

Um, maybe for some people.

My 2 cents: 1) Poker is not a sport. 2) Poker is still gambling, but comparing it to unbeatable games is unfair.

In my opinion, poker is not gambling, but not quite a sport too - at least sport in the more traditional sense like football, baseball, etc.

I think oftentimes, the lines get blurred because on the one hand there's the luck aspect, but on the other hand, poker requires skill as some of you have already mentioned. The Poker Players Alliance take the stance that poker is a skill game and I agree. Luck can play a role but I still think skillful players still are capable of winning when they're card dead (and when "luck shuts the door" as Doyle Brunson says in the Poker After Dark intro). Psychology plays a huge role in poker, as well as mathematics - it's more of a thinking game than gambling.