MTT - when to start shoving?

In the interest of generating a bit more discussion here, I thought I'd get people's thoughts about when you should start to consider moving all in in an MTT.

I tend to start considering shoving with an "M" of less than 10. Here's link that describes M for those who need a description of it.

What are everyone else's thoughts?

I will typically start looking for "my move" once I am down to around 12 to 15 Big Blinds. It seems that the industry standard is about 10 BBs. I aim a little higher for the following reasons:

• Folding Equity - When it comes to your opponents, the more of a threat you are to their stack, the less likely they are to call (unless of course they're holding a monster). When I shove all-in preflop, I am looking for 2 ways to win the hand. To have the best hand at the showdown, or to force my opponents to fold and win the blinds.

• More time to hunt for that hand worth shoving - Let's face it, sometimes we just run card-dead for a while. Those 10 BBs can dwindle down to ash rather quickly, especially when the next blind increase comes around. If you've got 8,000 with the blinds at 800, you've got 10 BBs. But when the blinds go up to 1,000, now you're down to 8 blinds. Once you pay about a full blind's worth of antes on a single trip around the table, you're down to 7. Even if you catch AA in the Big Blind and get doubled up, you're still not far over 10 BBs, and still basically in trouble.

• Making the double-up worth it - 15 BBs may not seem like much, but if you double that, you're sitting on a very comfortable 30 BBs and now have some room to play some poker.

When it comes to shoving, hand selection is very important, but it should not be the only factor. Always consider opportunities for an easy steal, sometimes even disregarding your cards. For instance, if the action folds around to you on the button and the small blind is a super tight player and the big blind is sitting out, steal the blinds. Or maybe you're in the big blind and the only limper in the pot is a player who raises any strong hand he comes in with. The only time you've seen him limping is with small suited connectors. Shove them. It's highly unlikely he'll call and you'll make up some easy ground.

Another consideration to make is the money factor. A player with only slightly more chips than you is far less likely to call you on the bubble than he would be to call you once you've all made it ITM (in the money).

Still, for the most part you do want to consider hand strength and position when making your move. Many player like to move with any Ace. Moving with a hand like A6 is a horrible idea. It will work against players who will call you with KQ or KJ, but you'll be in real bad shape if I make the call. If I am calling your all-in preflop, I have at least AQ suited, bare minimum, and many of those I'll toss away depending on the opponent. Most players are unlikely to call you with anything less than Ace-high, and there are far more Ace-high hands that have A6 dominated than not. You will only be in good shape against 4 different Ace-high hands: A2, A3, A4, and A5. 7 different Ace-high hands will have you dominated and will likely send you to the rail. You want a good Ace-high hand to shove all-in with? Shove with AK. That will be dominated by nothing but AA or KK. AK will still even stand a decent chance in a race against QQ, JJ, and TT. Any lower pair makes your AK that much stronger.

Now keep in mind that when you make your move, if at all possible, be the one shoving the action. You could shove with a hand like AT from the button if the circumstances warrant it, but calling an all-in from an early to middle position with AT could prove to be a huge mistake. The person who moved all-in from from early position is likely one of two things: One, a bad player with a mediocre hand, or two, a decent player with a very strong hand, likely something like AK or a big pocket pair. If this early position all-inner is a solid player, you should easily muck your AT, knowing that this player is not shoving all of chips in under the gun with a hand like A9 or worse.

Beware the Pot-Committed! Once a player has raised say 5 blinds preflop, beware that he/she 98% of the time will call you (and rightfully should) when you shove in your last 10 BBs. Be certain that your hand is a favorite to win before shoving back on a player who has already committed him/herself to the pot. Even if the player only raised 3.5 or 4 blinds, bear in mind that this player may just as easily call your 6 more blinds with whatever, so again, make sure that you have a stronger than average shove hand before coming back over a raiser for the last of your chips. Shoves are more likely to scoop in the blinds when only limpers are in.

Who to shove against:
I typically gun for the average sized stacks. Big stacks are likely to call anything, just because they could double you up and not even notice the tiny little scuff you put in their stack. Or they could knock you out for a good laugh. The short stacks are as desperate if not more so than you. Back a wounded, wild animal into a corner and then attack it. See what happens.
I aim for the players with the average size stacks. They are comfortable. They don't want to call off a huge portion of their stack on a coin-flip and become shorstacked themselves. They don't have so many chips that they can afford to piss them away, but then again, they're not so short that they feel the need to do something crazy. What they are is in the perfect position to easily give up a blind. Add it to your stack.

And finally, what do we shove with?
Simply put, anything that makes a 21 in blackjack, or any pocket pair.
When I find myself super short, say maybe only 5 or 6 blinds, I'll greatly widen my variety of shove hands to include most suited connectors, but still, not just "any Ace." Consider this, 67 suited will beat AK roughly 40% of the time, while A8 will only win less than 27% of the time against AK.
If I end up super-duper short, maybe 2 or 3 blinds, I'll take some less than pleasing propositions, including some suited Ace rag and even some suited face rag hands.
If I'm stuck with a blind or so, just give me something with a face card in it, and we'll call it a day. With the amount of gambles you'll need to win this tournament, you're not likely to survive them all. Still, don't lose your head and throw them away on 2 7 off.
I remember once I was playing in a poker tournament. I got sat at a table with my biggest poker rival. Me and this guy had played against eachother many times before, and had a long history of butting heads at the table. With the blinds at only 30/60, we got into a huge pot. When the dust had settled, he had sucked me out with a 2 outter on the river. He doubled his stack, and I was left with 90 chips. Exactly 1.5 Big Blinds. I did not tilt. I took my time and waited for a good hand to shove my last 90 chips. Soon my stack had grown from 90 to about 200, to a few hundred, and eventually into thousands. Although I didn't win that tourney, I did end up finishing ITM. The most gratifying part of it all was watching my rival get felted outside of the money and getting up to walk away from the table where I was still sitting.

Stick to a plan where you are getting your chips in good when you are the shortstack. You may not always get them in best, but avoiding getting them in completely dominated will greatly increase your average finishing place and your tournament winnings.

Good luck!

It depends on the tournament for me.
I might wait at the beginning of a tournament more than I would in the middle and later rounds to start shoving, because I know in the beginning you get more callers and there's no antes yet. Also I might still be able to play a flop cheap and take the pot after flop and not have to risk suck outs.
However once the blinds and antes getting going, I am shoving at 15BB, I have literally worked from 12BB up to table chip lead just by blind and ante theft alone. I think my record is stealing 100k in an Absolute Poker freeroll in one hour when it was like 1000/2000 and 250 antes or something like that and rising... the only time i got called is when i held aces and dbled up there.
I never play tight when I am short stacked, hell I shove in with 5-6o hoping to take the pot down, and you'd be amazed how many times i been revived by that play when someone with AJ calls and whiffs the whole way, and I get my measily 5.

Thanks and good thoughts guys. I like the idea pushing in before your chips stack gets too low (i.e., TBD's 12 to 15 BBs). I think I get a bit of a mental block when I still have my chips with that many blinds, but no reason why I shouldn't be able to shift my thinking right?

I too am also of the mindset that you cant just sit and start to get blinded away,Then when you get to 10 BB's start just pushing in with whatever you feel is good enough.
I would agree with big donk that even 12-15 BB's is getting a little slim and a double up from 15 puts you in a much stronger position to which thn play a bit more aggressively.
Personally at 20 BB's my mindset changes and start to push to try to consolisate my position a little more.
There is nothing i hate more is just passively getting blinded out of a tourney.
Thats just my thoughts on that.