the "All In" move

Ok im in this tourney, a freeroll... i have 8d9d and the flop is 8c 6d 7d , and a guy puts me all in. so i think about it, and i called, He ended up having AA and i caught nothing, do you think that i made the right move or what? I had top pair open ended straight flush draw, so i had a ton of outs, but was it the right move to call?

I saw pros call two all ins in the same game with top pair and just a straight draw. I had it recorded from season five WPT I don't remember which tournament. The callers won both times they caught the str. If the pros do it, I guess you made the right move. I took note planning to do the same thing thats why i remember.

Regards Guy

I'd prefer to shove that vs. making the call for the extra equity you'll get from the possibility of your opponent folding. However, the odds that someone will lay down AA in a freeroll are super slim; the fold equity is likely negligible at best.

So if my opponent acted first and I had to call or fold, would I fold?

F%#$ no. Never. You're a huge favorite in that hand. The AA is actually a big DOG. Roughly 34.5% of the time he'll win. But 65.5% of the time you're going to double your stack. Those kinds of odds are exactly the reason why we play poker instead of craps or roulette or other such games.

If you were in that situation 100 times, and you made the call every time, you'd come out way ahead. If each time you had $1,000 and your opponent had $1,000, by the end of 100 all-ins of the same hand, you would finish up with something like $131,000 if I'm not mistaken.

Sounds like a solid investment to me.

every call with that flop you do right

burntaces wrote:Ok im in this tourney, a freeroll... i have 8d9d and the flop is 8c 6d 7d , and a guy puts me all in. so i think about it, and i called, He ended up having AA and i caught nothing, do you think that i made the right move or what? I had top pair open ended straight flush draw, so i had a ton of outs, but was it the right move to call?

I don't want to rehash what TBD said but you had a lot of outs since it was an open ended straight draw and a straight flush draw and you had top pair (albeit weak kicker)

Lets see...any 10 or 5 would give you a straight. Any of the two remaining 8s would have given you a set of eights. Any diamond not already accounted for (7) would give you even more outs. In total, there's 17 outs if I counted correctly (sorry, it's getting late and I'm not sure if my brain's working right now!). I would be inclined to make that call. I guess the outs go up if you think two pair (8s and 9s) would beat your opponent.

From what I can tell, your opponent probably put you all-in because he saw that the board was dangerous (flushing and straightening). If you had AA, you may be inclined to bet aggressively as well to push your opponents out of the way and pick up the pot before another scare card hits on the turn or river.

If I recall correctly, Phil Helmuth actually threw away the straight flush draw during this year's WSOP Main Event against an all-in (Gus Hanson was reportedly disgusted). Is that a bad move? I think a lot of people would say yes (I'm on the fence though). But with Helmuth, he'll be willing to throw away a good drawing hand to stay alive and not put his tourney at risk. So not everyone will play those straight flush draws but in a freeroll, I would opt to play it almost every time.

Here's my personal rule on this hand: beginning of tournament, im calling no matter what. If it is later on in a tournament and i have a good stack and im gonna be crippled im willing to muck those hands a bit more. but if it is against someone i have seen fiddling around in lots of pots i might call... the one reason i dont mind throwing away this hand is that you could be up against a set or a made straight... it depends on who is in that pot with me when i make those decisions... if it is a loose raiser (someone I have seen raise it up with small pocket pairs or suited/non-suited connectors) then yeah im getting off that hand... id prolly call against aces with that hand unless my tournament life is at stake or im gonna be crippled if i catch nothing but air, but if it isn't gonna really kill me to call an all in, then sure i'll be in there racing with whoever...in cash games i do about the same thing.. im more willing to race though... since that hand should crack most hands enough to make it profitable in the long run..


ps you could be dominated by someone all in with a higher flush draw too... someone like me might push hard with an ace-king flush in that spot

The Big Donk wrote:I'd prefer to shove that vs. making the call for the extra equity you'll get from the possibility of your opponent folding. However, the odds that someone will lay down AA in a freeroll are super slim; the fold equity is likely negligible at best.

So if my opponent acted first and I had to call or fold, would I fold?

F%#$ no. Never. You're a huge favorite in that hand. The AA is actually a big DOG. Roughly 34.5% of the time he'll win. But 65.5% of the time you're going to double your stack. Those kinds of odds are exactly the reason why we play poker instead of craps or roulette or other such games.

If you were in that situation 100 times, and you made the call every time, you'd come out way ahead. If each time you had $1,000 and your opponent had $1,000, by the end of 100 all-ins of the same hand, you would finish up with something like $131,000 if I'm not mistaken.

Sounds like a solid investment to me.

Pretty much took the words out of my mouth, er, the letters out of my typing.

I just hate going in on a draw.not to nag but you didnt have the top pair unless you mistyped the hole cards.but yes i probably would have gone with it most of the time if i had more chips then the other guy.but being for all my chips i woulda folded. just my opinion though

You had more than enough outs to justify a call. But here is a question to ask yourself: Is this a hand I would want to pin my whole tournament on? Depending on the stage of the tournament and your stack relative to your oponents this is a good question to ponder before calling an all in. If the player who shoved had done the same thing 2 hands before, and 2 hands before that then it becomes much easier otherwise you have to assume you will need to improve to win the hand.

You did the right thing to bad you didant catch something

Honestly, I can't believe anyone would respond to this post with a "I would fold" blah blah blah. I've played enough tourneys that I know..no one would ever fold that..unless ur a nit..and in that case...I'd give up poker and play bingo..it might be more profitable..lol
Personally, Out of position I shove...in position I call any all in...and reraise any bet. Its + EV any way you look at it..but listen...if you don't have all 52 cards..there is a chance you could get beaten! My 2 cents

in a freeroll? maybe the right move, but how much is enough on a hand like that. All the pros advocate small ball poker if you think you can beat the other players down the road.

I am going all in less and less and seldom do it as a scare especially in free rolls. A few times the big blind is as likeley to scare someone in a free roll as an all in.

heck no if you had alot of money or if were really close to a lot of money but if it were like just a freeroll at like the beginning maybe i mean i would never do that in a real money table or real money tourney if you were playing for alot of money that was a donk move but it was kinda good i would get a little excited then i would realise the chances and would probably fold

I' love to flop that, next to flopping a boat it would be for me the best possible situation to be inn. I would hate to be up aginst AK diomonds but hey what can you do.

I CAN`T fold a straight flush draw> lol

I agree. Straight + flush draw, with or without a pair already, has more than 50% chance of winning (except where your opponent is likely to be holding some of your outs... that's a situational thing though... if you have TJKQ you probably shouldn't consider the ace your opponent holds as an out (if you put him on having one/two), and depending on what value the suited cards are, your flush may likely be a dead out to an Ax suited... look for the reason they shoved.)

The situation in question, though... I interpreted it as either you having a sizable stack and someone with perhaps half your stack goes all in, and it's up to you to call it with that draw, or the sizes are reversed (that 2:1 ratio is enough to make you consider the odds that it's a move that doesn't want a call and thinks you'll give it up) l. I would shove that draw myself if my stack was average or below, honestly. The only time the question would come up is if it was very early and it would mean my whole stack... one time where I don't like to settle for mere slight favorite coin flippy type odds that I hunt for at any other stage of a tourney. If the pot's small, multiway, and I don't have much invested yet (all true if I was playing suited connectors), I'd have a considerable case-by-case decision based on the player's style and M at the time.

absolutely the correct move, u had the post-flop odds even against AA. i've learned that u can't play scared when in tourney play. that doesn't mean reckless moves are smart, u just have to calculate odds and pay attention to betting patterns

originally i think the concept centerd around what your willing to risk ,and how you read your opponent...but lately it just seems that any idiot with a chipis trying to demonstrate his willingness to unbalance a poker game...i dont know i,ve had some serious bad beats this month...maybe i,m jaded...i think going all in has its time n place and so many variables its hard to look at in one text.... on a flop withoesd na fl draw i think what i would bet is far different to what i would call...in the instance you set out..i beleive i would make the call

for me it was i would've done it too
it's a freeroll you had top pair straight and flush draw man
that is a call for sure you just have to wait for the luck but sometimes it doesn't come
but you shouldn't worry for me it was a good call!

i wouldn t have folded, but thats me. you had alot of outs and the odds were in your favor, its to bad you didn t hit, but thats poker. anything can happen in this game. i watch alot of poker on t.v. and i am suprised at the hands that win. we would call them sukouts, but they are winning million dollar tournaments with rag. its all in the cards and if they want to come out to play.....

I would hav called ezcept for very early in a freeroll when you can have no idea what your opponent might have and have to risk all your chips. I guess you were not playing on full tilt because it seems like the straight draws are always winners.

this is an insta-call !! especially if your gut tells you your opponent has an over pair! you have 20 outs ! 9 diamonds, 6 to the open-ender, 2 eights & 3 nines ! how many cards (not counting runner runner BS ) improve his hand ? TWO !!
odds are 2:1 (roughly) in your favor to win against the overpair. even if he's holding 2 bigger diamonds he's a dog here with only 11 outs ! 5 diamonds plus 6 to a bigger pair